tv NOW With Alex Wagner MSNBC January 9, 2015 1:00pm-2:01pm PST
claiming responsibility for the attack. >> it has totalled up to a bloody 48 hours in and around paris. ♪ [ gunshots ]. >> in the streets of paris the world's seen once again what terrorists stand for. >> nobody in france has experienced anything like the carnage that took place. >> they have nothing to off by hatred and human sufrg. >> small groups of people that essentially shut down and terrorize a city. >> the three gunmen are now dead. >> the two kouachi brothers cornered at a printing press. >> the gunmen took hostages at a grocery store. >> the individuals are being e escorted out. >> many many more questions to be answered. >> the thing that scares them the most that this is the
beginning. >> we stand for freedom and hope and the dignity of all human beings. that spirit will endure forever long after the scourge of terrorism is banned from this world. >> we are staying with breaking developments out of france today. three suspected terrorists are dead in the dramatic aftermath of the "charlie hebdo" terrorist attacks. cherif kouachi and said kouachi were killed after an aggressive manhunt following wednesday's massacre. police tell nbc news that a hostage was released from the printing facility unharmed. and a swarm of tactical forces moved in on a kosher supermarket in eastern paris where a suspect linked to the kouachi brothers was also killed. despite footage of people running away from the store with
police escort we know that four hostages were killed in that market with the gunman. the market gun man is amedy coulibaly. it is unclear where boumediene is at this moment. moments ago, the associated press reported that a member of al qaeda's branch in yemen says that group directed the attack on "charlie hebdo." with the nation reeling from the strategic, president hollande said it is not over. >> president obama said the united states historic ties with france bind us together with this very day. >> france is our oldest ally. i want the people of france to
know that the united states stands with you today, stands with you tomorrow. we stand for freedom and hope and the dignity of all human beings. that's what the city of paris represents to the world and that spirit will endure forever. long after the scourge of terrorism is banished from this world. >> joining me now is are onron allen. surely some parts of france are breathing a sigh of relief. but with president hollande saying this is not over it is still tense on the ground. can you give us a sense of what's been happening? >> somewhat tense but a lot of relief that this is -- seems to be over for the most part. it's unclear where the woman is. there were reports earlier saying she was killed or escaped but it's now, yes, a manhunt, a woman hunt a person hunt. there is a dragnet out looking for this individual and she is
considered armed and extremely dangerous. not sure what her role in all this was whether she was an architect or dragged along by her former or her current partner, but again, yes, the situation is still very much active and alive. we are in the neighborhood around the corner from where the supermarket siege happened in that direction. at this point things are calm. but just around that corner there is a line of police cars. we are not allowed to go in that direction and have not been all day. but parisians are breathing a sigh of relief. and the situation could have been so much more. right now we do believe that there were four hostages who were killed. the number of hostages taken could be as high as 12 or 15 total. many of them escaped. that could have been a lot worse and the authorities moved quickly to settle this thing. they launched the simultaneous raids when there was apparently
some coordination between the gunmen in the two places. the kouachi brothers in the northern part of the city and the gunmen here in the eastern part of paris. but an active dragnet out. unclear where this woman is and what she is capable of doing but it's a lot of concern this is an ongoing situation. >> ron thanks for the info. i want to bring in cassandra vinaigrette. can you tell us how the raid on the printing plant went down and what situation led to the police going in? >> there were reports initially earlier this morning that the brothers were spotted in dammartin. as after about seven hours, police decided to move in and end the standoff.
>> cassandra, was there a sense that the situation -- we've heard conflicting reports about a hostage being in one part of the building and the brothers in another part of the building. do we have clarity about the hostage and whether or not the brothers knew he was there? >> at this point there is very little clarity on where the hostage was. we know there was one person in the building when the brothers were in there. and luck they that person is out safe. >> i want to go now to nbc news chief correspond, richard engel. a branch of al qaeda in yemen is claiming responsibility for the attack. >> in fact, two of the -- in fact one of the two brothers himself, said that he was affiliated with al qaeda in yemen. while this hostage situation was taking place.
a french journalist placed a call to the printing press and cherif the younger of the two brothers picked up the phone and declared he was part of al qaeda in yemen on a mission that was directly financed by anwar alawlaki. he was killed by a drone strike in 2007 in yemen. he was one of al qaeda's top recruiters of foreign nationals because of his command of english and charismatic personality. one of the brothers himself admitted in this stunning phone call that he made during the hostage siege that he was part of al qaeda in yemen. >> richard, let me ask you, to that end in terms of claiming responsibility for this we had word that amedy coulibaly said to the press he was trained or
affiliated with i.s. the islamic state. the bizarreness of two groups claiming responsibility here. how unprecedented is that at this particular moment? >> it's actually becoming increasingly less unusual. and the reason is syria. and the reason is iraq. because in the last year or so the islamic movements, the islamic radical movements in syria and iraq have become so powerful they have taken over effectively their own small state. that means islamic groups in that country are forced to work together. you see a group once part of al qaeda transform into a -- into entity called islamic state. you have certain militant groups that will switch their allegiance going from one group to another. we now have a true safe haven for all of these groups where
they can work together. they can make their personal relationships and not just think about battle and training, but be actively and engaged in battle and strange. joining me now is everyone coleman and michael sheehan. evan, let me start with you in terms of how al qaeda in yemen claiming responsibility for the tack changing everyone's calculus in terms of how to understand this attack. everyone said al qaeda do big acts of terrorism. this was certainly devastating casualties but in scale not as big as 9/11. >> there are a lot of caveats here. aqap put out a magazine that say said they can make explosivings out of people's clothing.
if they are developing explosives they can sneak into airports and carry out catastrophic attacks why are they doing relatively penny an te in this. and this operation was financed -- the latest it could have been was mid-2011. it took four years to launch an attack in a newspaper office in downtown paris. and aqap is focused on two two finds of recruitment. there is evidence they may have gone there and received training and met anwar awlaki. but they are simply directing people to carry out attacks saying we've given you the training and given you the kinds of target. just do it. don't bother us. until we see a formal claim from
aqap and they document the fact that they knew these people. in the case of the underwear bomber aqap had a photo of him on the internet prove there was no doubt he had been to yemen and trained by aqap and preparing a major operation. if aqap can't provide that kind of document or isis or whatever group, if they can't provide that documentations we have to take the claims with a grain of salt especially when isis and aqap they do hate each other. they despise each other. and so how closely could this have been coordinated if one guy says it's aqap and the other says he's isis. it doesn't make any sense. >> michael, let me ask you, in terms of the alleged attacker or person involved in this plot
hayat boumediene does the involvement with the terrorist network have any way to get her out of france? >> we don't know what type of network they were connected to but they're going to find out if there was a network associated with these characters and the extent of it. she will be caught. her photo is plastered all over the press. and as i predicted these two would be caught quickly, she will also. and we'll see -- hopefully she will be caught alive and we will be able to extract more information from her and the extent of networks that may or may not lead back to al qaeda in yemen or whether they are acting independent but inspired by the organizations. >> are you surprised that she was -- the reporting is fluid here. but that she may have been able to escape the scene of the
supermarket hostage site disguised potentially as one of the hostages? there seem to be protocols to prevent something like that happening. >> i think it's too early to make that judgment. but, yes, a professional counterterrorism element that's maintaining security around an event like that will control people coming out of that site and make sure like you see on television episodes that one of the perpetrators sneaks out with people that are escaping from the terrorists. so the french are very, very good at this. it would surprise me if she were able to slip through that. but it remains to be seen and it will all come out over the next few days. >> i want to bring in marie harf. thanks for joining me on a very busy day for you guys. what is the reaction from the u.s. state department about the reporting that al qaeda in yemen may have been directing this
attack? >> well alex there are a lot of unknown questions here that we are trying to pull every thread. the intelligence community is work working with the french. if they have links to aqap i think it underscores for people what a threat he was not just to the u.s. but to our partners in europe and how important it was for us to take him off the battlefield not just for us but for our partners and if i stress if this turns out to be true this reminds people of that. >> as all fairness anwar awlaki was killed in 2007 and we are in 2015 clearly neutralizing a threat four years ago, the threat is not neutralized because we are half a decade later an carnage ensued. the white house focused on islamic state. we didn't hear about al qaeda or
aqap. what assurances can you give to the americans that we are as targeted to aqap as i.s.? >> we are not jumping to conclusions in the intelligence community is looking at who they might have been involved with and inspired by. they are not mutually exclusive. but we have been very focused on aqap. if you look at our counterterrorism operation really row focusing there. we talked about it on your network in going after this group that tried with the christmas day bombing to attack the united states homeland. >> let me ask you one more question. we have heard a lot about the french maybe accessing american intelligence records when it comes to wiretapping data or data associated with correspondence between these attackers and groups outside of
france. to what sense have the french called upon the u.s. for assistance? this? >> we have a close friendship with the french. but that has continued. and any piece of information that we might have that might help them determine who might have helped these people and how they turned to this horrific act we will share that with them. we are working at the law enforcement level and intelligence level to do anything we can. >> marie, thank you for taking time today. >> happy to do it. >> evan let me go back to this bigger question about the war on terror and dismantling terrorist networks. here are two guys or three guys, presumably, four two -- three guys and a lady who were on the terrorist watch list and yet
this happened. for a lot of people who watched the establishment of the international surveillance networks it is disconcerting that people who were this publicly profiled can get away with this. >> and it's very difficult to understand. but the only thing i can say is that you have to understand the number of people in france who have been radicalized. over 1,000 people have gone to syria alone. when you talking about that numbers of people it is prohibitively effective to track every single one. the estimates are one out of every ten persons becomes a terrorist threat. trying to guess who the one in ten is it's not an easy task. >> and there is a question of resources necessary to track those folks. we will talk about that and a lot more. after the break more on the report from the a.p. that the al
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approved! live the regular life. phillips'. we continue to follow breaking news out of france where three gunmen have been killed. cherif and said kouachi said kouachi the two brothers suspected of killing a dozen people at a newspaper this week were killed after holding a hostage for hours. moments later forces stormed a market in paris where an associate of the kouachi brothers were holding hostages. four hostages were killed in the siege in the market. the gunman has been identified as amedy coulibaly.
new details emerge about the brothers behind the attack on "charlie hebdo." said kouachi said kouachi was trained by al qaeda in yemen in 2011. heed me with anwar awlaki who was killed in a u.s. drone strive that year. before being killed by french security forces today, said's younger brother, cherif said he received financing from awlaki. a member of the branch in yemen says they directed the attack on "charlie hebdo." these reports have not been confirmed by nbc news. joining me now is the co director on 21st century security, michael o'hanlan. let's talk about the fact that al qaeda in yemen might be claiming responsibility for this
attack. >> it's been a while since awlaki has been killed in yemen but it's is a cell that has been potent and the political turmoil in yemen has prevented us from having a strategy. so we tried to improve the government in yemen over the years and pushed out the previous leader hoping that his successor could be more effective in dealing with al qaeda. however there is a civil war superimposed on that mess meaning that the government or the u.s. or the shia based insurgent group have been able to suppress al qaeda. yemen is a sanctuary for al qaeda in the arabian peninsula and it worries not only us but it worried the saudis to death. it's a potent capability unfortunately in that country. >> what about the news that both brothers may have met with anwar
awlaki. again some of this is not confirmed. but reuters is confirming that cherif kouachied me awlaki in 2011. and he trained in yemen or met anwar awlaki as well. does that sound possible to you? >> it doesn't sound crazy. it may be grand standing. they may see awlaki as a great hero. he was a successful terrorist. he was very dangerous to us. and maybe they see it as a badge of merit and pride that they had access to him. they may have just been bragging to people they thought would be impressed by that claim or it may have been the reality. i have no doubt that awlaki a lot of people but he was more the mastermind in some ways than necessarily the guy who was on the street shaking hands and rallying the troops.
>> i want to bring in now nbc news terrorism analyst, michael sheehan. michael to the hierarchy and organization of aqap it sounds like it is more in disarray than previous al qaeda structures. can you tell us how the group may have been laid out and the directive might have been given in a case like this. >> i am not sure how tightly the directive was given to these individuals. they were clearly acting upon general direction from "inspire" magazine which is published by al qaeda in the arabian peninsula which targeted "charlie hebdo" and identified the editor as a target. so they are responding to that al qaeda in arabian peninsula media product and whether or not they were directly or more recently tied to aqap's leadership is not really important particularly for their
audience. although there although this is a small attack it was successful in terms of what they accomplished for their base the radical jihadis who have looked at this bringing france to its knees for 48 hours. this is a tremendous success for them and for aqap which has had a series of failures over the last four or five years. this is a big boost to them whether or not the ties are very direct or not. >> so evan you know i think michael takes issue that it matters how the directive was given. but if this is proven out that aqap did direct this it will certainly be a retaliation from france or the western powers from this. and i wonder how aqap's structure makes that easier or harder? >> it is harder. awlaki has been dead for four years. who are we going to fire at now and there are leaders left but we have killed all sorts of them
and it's not stopping them if this is them. one of the issues is whether or not they can document if they were involved in this. the underwear bomb plot anwar awlaki supposedly personally recruited the underwear bomber. and aqap went to great lengths to document that and document anwar awlaki's responsibility. if they have that kind of evidence at a minimum it will be embarrassing for the u.s. government which claims that it has aqap up against the wall and taken out all sorts of people and we have but that doesn't seem to be killing the organization off. i think that's really one of the issues here is how can we be claim to be defeating al qaeda if al qaeda is launching operations in major capitals. it's a major question. >> in terms of al awlaki i
wonder if there was so much attention paid to the drone strike if there was a potential for him to become a martyr and inspire jihadists. >> i think it's true. i think some leadership in aqap have been survived and been alive until today. and so unfortunately there may be a little bit more of the leadership intact in areas where it is important, there is some expertise. these weapons and the nature of the attacks in france was fairly unsophisticated. it is just getting on the weapons and shooting straight but it's some of the bomb make capabilities they have been talking about as you referred to earlier in the show. this suggests there is a certain of amount of intact technical expertise in aqap. but awlaki's charisma have a
role there. and we might want them to be up against a wall but our strategy has hinged on being able to strengthen the government and have the government really decimate this organization. it's too muddled and murky and complex for that. but i don't want to overstate it. we're not losing to aqap and this was a tragic week for france. but aqap is not winning either. they have to work hard and wait very long to have this occasional success. >> and michael o'hanlan if we look at the drone strikes in yemen, there are confirmed between 72 and 84 drone strikes in yemen. these numbers are of course a little bit opaque because we don't have intelligence on the civilians killed between 64 and 83. our drone policy is a part of our counter testify ritual policy in yemen, has it not?
>> it has. and it's been a tragic week and this has been very bad for france. but i also don't think it would be right to give the impression not that evan or michael did, but allow aqap to foster the impression they are winning. they are surviving and that's bad enough and i regret that but they are not gaining momentum and i don't want to overstate what they accomplished this week. >> michael o'hanlan thank you for your time. just ahead. the kouachi brothers who reportedly carried out the attacks on "charlie hebdo" were on terror lists. we will discuss how countries can prevent the kind of terror that happened in france this week. . but there's a better choice. drink more brita water. clean, refreshing, brita.
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the attack on "charlie hebdo." none of them were strangers to law enforcement. said and cherif had been under police surveillance but not in the priority. the younger brothers cherif kouachi cherif kouachi had been charged with amedy coulibaly, the terrorist behind the kosher deli hostage situation. they were charged in a separate 2010 terror blot. with me is brian cotolis and evan and michael. the convection between the kouachi brothers and aqap al qaeda in the arabian peninsula, noun as aqap your thoughts on how this changes the landscape,
if you will in terms of counterterrorism measures. >> i don't know if it changes the landscape. but we are in a different era than after the 9/11 attacks. and part of it is the interconnected nature of the groups. and the other part is you is starter or pop up groups that can get connected to aqap and the global al qaeda movement and isis and have a mentorship going on. i think that is the different dynamic here. what i think looking at this more than 14 years after 9/11 or so, we are quite good at going on the offensive against these movements in places like yemen and pakistan. we will never be i think 100% foolproof in preventing attacks like this unfortunately. and the tip of the spear in all of this is enhancing the intelligence collection and what we can do with the police to
prevent and also respond to incidents like this. >> there seems to be renewed focus on what is done domestically for home-grown terrorists. these guys apparently went to a mosque which was known as a radicalized community. and known as a hot bed for insurgency. there was talk about the mosque that a lot of these -- several of these young men went to and the imam there being a force for radicalization and their time together in a jail in paris known for overcrowding. one would think that french officials will be looking at what is in their backyard to step up surveillance or policing or community activism to disentangle the networks that exist in plain day.
>> and we have had similar incidents in the united states the boston marathon bombing where people were here and we had information about their connectedness to international groups but the point i want to stress is we want to learn from the incidents but we shouldn't pretend like we will be able to prevent all of this. all of the societal factor and political factors and psychological factors it's hard to predict what individuals who are essentially like thugs or gangs might do. some of the things that the obama administration tried to do when you talk about countering violent extremism. the cve is the acronym used. there are fitful efforts to talk about community engagement but the efforts are incomplete and they are just hard to do because you are dealing with human psychology and factors that are
out of our control completely. >> michael, let me ask you, this sounds sort of like the new age of terror. the scale of the 9/11 attacks is difficult to carry out without some intelligence agency finding out. this kind of attack as brian says is much harder to stop for a variety of factors. is the assumption that we will see much more of this in years to come? >> it has been predicted for many years. it is different from the bombings in london and madrid. al qaeda has tried to use bombs before and aqap has bomb makers but they have failed to get an explosive device into the united states and europe. so they have sympathyimplified their actions so they use ak-47s which are good in a terror attack. so they may be shifting their
tactics. and in directing operations i think most al qaeda operatives are reluctant to talk or expand their cell beyond the meet family. they know if they communicate or expand their network very large they are very liable to be unravelled by law enforcement and intelligence authorities the new way is to keep it tight. you won't have another 9/11 again. the new mode will be smaller and tighter and more compact and smaller operations. but they can still have a very large effect. >> evan we started talking about this in the last discussion but the resources that are needed to surveil people 24 hours a day. we know that in france according to french officials, surveillance requires three to ten agents for around the clock
surveillance. french authorities are estimating to be surveilling 5,000 french agents. it is impractical -- 5,000 seems to be a large number when you think about the manpower. >> and those are the obvious jihadists who have traveled to foreign conflict zones or out on the streets. but what about the 14-year-old girl who disappears and goes to syria to join isis? how do you stop that? and part of the problem is that the issue of its own nationals going abroad to join the organizations has gotten to the point where it is having difficulty monitoring the inflows and outflows. the beginning you see in the '90s where french nationals are going to these places. but the conflicts were much less
significant than they are now. looking at the way things are now it's very difficult. it's not just france. uk has the same problem. even switzerland. they don't have the same resources that the u.s. has and even if they had the level of resources that we do this would be a gargantuan problem. look how much effectiveness we've had in minneapolis despite the fact we know that somali americans have been recruited by al shabaab. now how is that we don't figure out when somalis are headed to syria they are going for jihadi groups. it seems obvious but it's more complex than that and it's not easy to do when you are confronted with someone 14 or 15 years old. >> the president made remarks on this earlier today and expressed his condolences with france and
said we stood shoulder to shoulder with france. but american intelligence officials must be watching closely in terms of how the french officials are handling it and whether they can get this fourth presumed terrorist who is still at large but also in terms of the way in which they were recruited and how much correspondence they had and how much was on their own. >> there has been a revolution in the last ten years in terms of how we collect intelligence and deal with these types of threats. and i think we've become more adept, our government has, in working not only internally with the different bureaus with working with other governments, partner governments, allies like france to learn what we cannot only about the motives but the methods these groups use. as they adapt, we adapt and i think that's a good thing. we've gotten a lot better.
>> brian and michael thank you for your time. just ahead. following the hostage situation, security was ramped up in the jewish neighborhoods and religious sites. and the largest synagogue cancelled services for the first time since world war 2. why did a panel of 11 automotive experts... ... name the volkswagen golf motor trend's 2015 car of the year? we'll give you four good reasons the all-new volkswagen golf starting at $17,995. there's an award winning golf for everyone.
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for jewish rentings of france an attack on a kosher grocery confirmed their worst fears. 2014 saw a rise in the number of anti-semitic attacks in the height of israel's war with hamas in gaza last summer. a poll found that 74% of jews considered leaving the country and 95% vud antisemitism in france worrisome.
this afternoon the #jeswuijaif started to trend worldwide. with us by phone is the european editor for "the economist." let me start with you first in terms of the sort of religious tension on the continent and specifically in france. as too as we are looking at the aftermath of the tack on the kosher grocery store, the attitude of france's jewish population has been one of great fear. the polling i found -- a lot of folks didn't understand how deeply distressed the community has been and how much under attack and one can only assume how what has happened will exacerbate the feelings of feel. >> you are right.
there are religious tensions all over the continent. and you have on the one hand the rise of the religious right with some small segments muslim communities and the french and european right. the jewish communities and muslim communities are pressed between a rock and a hard place. militants within and militants without. but let me make one point very clear. my hope and reading and it's not wishful thinking that what has happened in france in the last few days would serve as a catalyst to bring the french together. what's really -- what we have seen in the last three days alex, is a kind of a very mature -- it's a kind of very complex social and political scene. most of the rallies we have seen in france no to racism and no to
terrorism. everyone in france stress that this is a very unique attack. it does not speak in the name of islam or muslims. the muslim community one would hope would go on the offensive to make it very clear that what has happened in france is basically a very fringe attack and a very limited attack and individual attack by a very small limited network. >> fawaz it is worth noting that france has 500,000 jewish-french citizens which is the largest population in europe. and 5 million muslims. which is also the largest in europe. when you say they are coming together they are running into each other in the country. it bears highlighting how true that is. it is worth noting when we talk about anti-semitic incidents, they spiked in 2004 but they were lower in number than in the early 2000s. why this is an inflection point
specifically with regards to the national front party? >> well i have to say and i'm afraid that the national front party are going to benefit for this week. i mean one interesting thing about the national front over the past few years is they used to be identified as anti-semitic and anti-jewish party under her father but she has been strong taking the party away -- and she
is more anti-muslim and being sort of worried about muslims and particularly about fundamentist muslims is going to catch more votes in france and that is a worrying fallout of this week's events. >> john let me ask you as a follow on to that there is supposed to be a national day of unity this weekend. the national front party is being excluded from that. when we try to marginalize those who society deems to be rotten apples, if you will it makes them much more appealing to folks who might not be paying attention. what might be the consequences of that decision. >> the trouble what they do, she
is an appealing character. and the failure of the economy to make jobs and the unpopularity of president hollande is creating a support for her as well. how you deal with these right movements in europe is a problem. sometimes people say we want to engage them and bring them in. and you can lose either way. but i think the real difficulty with france apart from this week's terrible event is that the french economy has not been doing well for six or seven years now. and i think if they can't generate jobs you get a lot of unemployed muslims in paris and you get a breeding ground for this kind of sinking that leads to the polarization that fawaz is talking about.
>> john mentioned about the unpopularity of president hollande. in the united states in moments of national crisis it tends to strengthen whoever is in office. it sounds like that may not be true in this case with president hollande. >> we have to wait and see how the president handles this particular situation. his approval rating is at the bottom. 20% approval rating. it depends on how this particular sunday. the french will come together. the latest report is that the president does not exclude -- find point before we talk about -- we have been talking about the bad news. i want to put on the table the good news. the two brothers cherif and said one of the most important points, they had no shelter. no refuge no social base for
the last -- since wednesday since they committed that horrific attack they had been on the run. no community has sheltered them. they acted like criminals. they left all over the place and this tells you a great deal despite the horrific nature of the crime, this is a limited network of two or three or four people basically who do not really have any social base of support within the muslim community and that's why i believe in this particular on sunday serves as a catalyst to bring not only muslims and jews together but brings the french nation in a position to both racism and terrorism as well. >> i must say i agree with that. but i have to say that i don't think that president hollande's popularity is going to recover. i don't think he is attacking the problems of france. i don't see his popularity recovering. >> john peet thank you for joining us.
fawaz thank you for joining us. up next we will have the latest on the search for the last suspect in the paris attacks. iew. and now angie's list is revolutionizing local service again. you can easily buy and schedule services from top-rated providers. conveniently stay up to date on progress. and effortlessly turn your photos into finished projects with our angie's list app. visit angieslist.com today. ♪ >> bingo! >> darn it! i was one square away from winning that game. >> it's a shame sadie isn't here today she always wins. coulda won the big prize. >> you know, that could have helped her with some of jim's funeral expenses. >> there wasn't any life insurance? >> no, there wasn't. i'd been trying to convince her to call about the colonial penn program to make sure they had coverage but she was worried
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we also found a national identity card at the name of said kouachi born on september 7, 1980 and with the molotov cocktail we found a [ indiscernible ] that said kouachi was known as being one of the killers by -- has been identified by a witness and also been identified by a number of people as having fired on the police. said kouachi has being sentenced and convicted. he had been heard in the matter of the iraqi network of the district but he had never -- really in trouble with the justice system. his brother had been convicted